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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
340
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Posted - 2013.06.20 13:31:00 -
[1] - Quote
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:I want to thank you for doing this. No seriously.
You are spending your own isk and alts to help prove just how unbalanced the ability to go away from the client while cloaking is.
CCP has never said anything positive about doing that other than to say that AFK Cloaking is not an exploit. Which it isn't as that would be against the TOS but it is unbalanced. Maybe this will help convince them that it is time to finally dig into the extremely old code of cloaking and try something new.
Again thank you!
It's only unbalanced because YOU LET IT BE. |
Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
343
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 14:31:00 -
[2] - Quote
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:Let it be? I and many others have made suggestions in detail on how CCP can bring balance to cloaking without harming active players. The ideas are there and CCP never comments other than to say it is not an exploit. My guess is that Cloaking code is a mess and any changes will require significant dev time that may have been planned for something else.
That is why I thank the folks that are doing this and making topics like these. At the very least it may convince CCP to actually take a public side of the issue or maybe even do something to bring balance to cloaking.
I got news for you: Any "fix" CCP comes up with to circumvent afk cloaking will have a solution within a few days, and you will continue to see cloaked ships sitting in your home system. The players will adapt.
What you need to learn to understand is this fix would make matters much worse for you, as any cloaked ships in your system must be assumed to be not afk at all times, whereas now you can reasonably determine that someone is indeed afk. You also need to learn to adapt yourself, and when you do, you will see it for what it is - a non-issue.
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Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
343
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 14:47:00 -
[3] - Quote
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:Kijo Rikki wrote:Endeavour Starfleet wrote:Let it be? I and many others have made suggestions in detail on how CCP can bring balance to cloaking without harming active players. The ideas are there and CCP never comments other than to say it is not an exploit. My guess is that Cloaking code is a mess and any changes will require significant dev time that may have been planned for something else.
That is why I thank the folks that are doing this and making topics like these. At the very least it may convince CCP to actually take a public side of the issue or maybe even do something to bring balance to cloaking. I got news for you: Any "fix" CCP comes up with to circumvent afk cloaking will have a solution within a few days, and you will continue to see cloaked ships sitting in your home system. The players will adapt. What you need to learn to understand is this fix would make matters much worse for you, as any cloaked ships in your system must be assumed to be not afk at all times, whereas now you can reasonably determine that someone is indeed afk. You also need to learn to adapt yourself, and when you do, you will see it for what it is - a non-issue. Considering my idea involved how long you remained AFK to be detectable. The way "around" that would likely be someone botting. And that would meaning getting botting players out of EVE. I welcome active cloakers. If they are willing to sit active in a system that long to disrupt activities I would be be pretty honored to have the attention of someone who is actually there and not off to the movies or elsewhere. That is why I am so glad to see this topic.
I think you underestimate how cheap cloaking ships are and how easy it would be for an alliance to simply send a cheap heron with a t1 cloak in and let it get found and send in a replacement. Every once in a while, send in something with teeth to keep you on your toes. Never know when it's just a decoy.
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Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
343
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 14:57:00 -
[4] - Quote
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:Kijo Rikki wrote: I think you underestimate how cheap cloaking ships are and how easy it would be for an alliance to simply send a cheap heron with a t1 cloak in and let it get found and send in a replacement. Every once in a while, send in something with teeth to keep you on your toes. Never know when it's just a decoy.
I want that! That gives defenders a chance with risk to go with it! That is PVP! That is space chess! That is GAMEPLAY!
I get the feeling what you really want is absolute safety and 100% assurance that there are no hostiles in the systme you are trying to rat or mine in. If you truly want PvP space chess you would arm your ships with points and have friends ready and go about your business. Instead you are here because quite frankly it scares you that someone is in system and there's nothing you can do about it unless they chose to engage.
As it stands, your idea of giving defenders a chance is to wait for your cloak timer to run out, spend some time trying to probe down some t1 heron with a cloak on it and destroy it, all the while a second heron is already in-system. You can pretend that this gives you a chance to fight back but it really doesn't. In the end you'll do what you always do, stay docked up because of the unkown. |
Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
343
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 15:14:00 -
[5] - Quote
Endeavour Starfleet wrote: Stay docked up when I can probe down ships and constantly force the offence to run the amount of jumps it takes to get to whatever system I would be in because they want to go AFK for long periods of time and not log out?
For me it would be an honor to the the target system of active players. Maybe we will even see more roams!
Key word here is active players.
Like I said, every once in a while something will be there that has teeth. The idea is to put fear into you and make you scared to go out. I'm willing to bet with these changes that an enemy alliance can lock down their production even harder then they do now.
Quote:You consider it gameplay. I never will. And CCP never comments either way. Your actions are helping to encourage CCP to take a side on the issue and for that I thank you.
CCP never does anything about it because it is the counter to perfect intel provided by local chat. It's already been determined long ago to be a valid tactic. |
Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
344
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Posted - 2013.06.20 16:48:00 -
[6] - Quote
Evei Shard wrote:The simple solution would be a delay between when a cyno is lit, and when it can be used.
This breaks sov warfare tactics, as a large enemy fleet can simply kill a cyno pilot before support can bridge in.
For reference and for old times sake: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDVEHE10nHc&list=PL566BFC69B63517A6
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Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
346
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 17:23:00 -
[7] - Quote
Ciyrine wrote:If ur in null ratting in faction bs and afk cloaker is there u have no choice but to downgrade ur ship severely right? Get a cheaper ship with more focus on escape? Im a complete newb so i shouldnt even be here commenting but that does seem pretty drastic system wide effect with no ability to track the cloaker down.
Seems to me some difficult to accomplish scanning method would be appropriate so that retaliation would be possible. Everything is risk/reward what risk is the afk cloaker taking? If it took 2 hrs to track the cloaker down that would ne good option so that the cloaker and threatened players have active interaction.
So it wouldnt be about changing cloaking so much as giving players the ability to hunt the cloaker down like submarine and destroyers. Cat and mouse. If the cloaker goes afk he gets caught
The point is that you really shouldn't feel free to be ratting in 0.0 in a faction fit battleship or carrier to begin with. You just do because local chat intel tells you the moment someone not blue to you and your alliance enters the system and you can warp to a safe point, dock up or cloak. It's a 100% safe way to care bear in what is supposed to be the harshest regions of space, but ironically it's often safer to do your pve deep in alliance nulsec pockets than it is to run missions in hi-sec.
AFK cloaking was a player made solution to the problem of infallible intel provided by local, and CCP has not had a problem with it ever since I joined the game in 08, if not much longer.
Of course, this means it might not be safe for you to rat in your faction fitted bs, but there is your risk versus reward. Honestly, I rat just fine in pvp fit ships, I don't make as much isk/hr as others but I havent lost a ratting ship since I was a noob. The problem is one and the same faced by hi-sec miners and suicide gankers. See, I and others like me have a problem with players loudly complaining that the game doesn't let them maximize their profit for no risk, instead of (in the case of hi-sec miners) sacrificing yield capability for enough tank to survive a gank long enough for CONCORD to arrive, or shipping down to a ship that gives options for dealing with possible threats from active and cloaked ships, or simply making yourself less of a target by not flying horribly expensive ships in the first place. |
Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
347
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 17:43:00 -
[8] - Quote
Ciyrine wrote:Kijo Rikki wrote:
The point is that you really shouldn't feel free to be ratting in 0.0 in a faction fit battleship or carrier to begin with. You just do because local chat intel tells you the moment someone not blue to you and your alliance enters the system and you can warp to a safe point, dock up or cloak. It's a 100% safe way to care bear in what is supposed to be the harshest regions of space, but ironically it's often safer to do your pve deep in alliance nulsec pockets than it is to run missions in hi-sec.
AFK cloaking was a player made solution to the problem of infallible inded by local, and CCP has not had a problem with it ever since I joined the game in 08, if not much longer.
Of course, this means it might not be safe for you to rat in your faction fitted bs, but there is your risk versus reward. Honestly, I rat just fine in pvp fit ships, I don't make as much isk/hr as others but I havent lost a ratting ship since I was a noob. The problem is one and the same faced by hi-sec miners and suicide gankers. See, I and others like me have a problem with players loudly complaining that the game doesn't let them maximize their profit for no risk, instead of (in the case of hi-sec miners) sacrificing yield capability for enough tank to survive a gank long enough for CONCORD to arrive, or shipping down to a ship that gives options for dealing with possible threats from active and cloaked ships, or simply making yourself less of a target by not flying horribly expensive ships in the first place.
Sounds reasonable to me. Although it would be a fun addition to the game if hunting cloaked ships was like hunting subs :)
I advocated the very idea once upon a time. :) |
Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
347
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 18:15:00 -
[9] - Quote
Several ways to deal with cloaky ships that you think are active. Fit a point on your ship and be in fleet with friends on standby, or pve together. If you think they might hot-drop fit a cyno as well and have people who love to counter-drop on standy.
Barring that just stay aligned, the instant something uncloaks he has to target you to point you, and the time it takes for system lag and all that jazz to get a lock is usually longer than the time it takes you to instawarp to something you were already lined up on. I have in my personal locations a folder named "Safe", in it are several. I always align to the first one when I land on a mission site or belt and its a simple matter to right click, mouse over safe, then t safe 1 and be gone. Alternatively if I am in a system with a POS I always align to that. Never to station, force of habit.
When we used to hunt carebears we'd often send an interdictor to station and bubble it, catching people trying to dock as soon as a red showed up in local. So never go for station.
Alternatively carry a flight of ecm drones. If you do get locked down deploy and sick them on the target and when the lock breaks run, its worth the investment and also if you're fast, you can click return to drone bay and you may save your drones to boot.
^ These are things I do regardless if there is a cloaked player in system. NEVER NOT PREPARED.
As an afterthought, its like wearing a seatbelt, you're not always going to get into an accident, but it's good to get into the habit, then the instant something bad happens you're ready to deal with it and not fly through a window or fly off the handle. |
Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
349
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 18:26:00 -
[10] - Quote
Evei Shard wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:*edit to snip, quotes were getting a bit long
Those are workable solutions, except that this is Eve. Thousands of dollars, if not more, are spent annually in this game by people choosing to operate at a total loss, simply because it "messes with someone". The concept of beating them through attrition by using cheaper ships and making it become "too expensive" for them is moot thanks to PLEX.
Not completely. You can't stop the people who do it for the lulz, but generally speaking I don't believe most people are going to waste more than 30 minutes hunting some carebear in a cheap fit drake or raven. You have to remember if he plans to bring down a battlecruiser or higher as a cloaked ship, he's going to need friends, and they're not going ot want to be sitting in space waiting for a guy to get point on a drake for over 30 minutes or longer. That kind of stuff is reserved for carriers and juicy targets. PvP players aren't usually worried about the isk war when roaming, they just want the killmail, but small potatoes combined with losses makes their stats look bad, and that does bother some. |
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